When my dad died he left behind a handful of laptops and computers around the house, all running Linux.
My mother has to call me for help with setting up her TV, she wasn’t about to learn Linux. I managed to get any critical files off and we installed Windows. For all of it’s faults, it’s certainly a hell of a lot easier to use.
When I had a computer dual booting Windows and Linux, I maybe booted up Linux three or four times over the years I had it. It honestly just created a headache when that machine crapped out because half the files I wanted were damn near impossible to recover. Those on the Linux side. Now you could say if I had installed Linux and tried to recover them it would have been no problem and you would have been right, but running Linux is a headache in and of itself. I can acknowledge that it’s a better operating system, but not from a usability or access to software standpoint. Even if both of those areas are improving, windows still wins in both.
My comment was more so that if you have two things and a problem arises, you should get rid of the one that causes the problem you’re having.
In this case, the problem of Windows replacing the bootloader and Windows deserves to lose out because of that.
But I bet a lot of people incorrectly assume it is Linux that has caused the problem, and they’re not necessarily wrong to assume that since Linux takes a bit more to learn and can be confusing to the layman.
But the underlying issue in OP’s meme is Windows replacing the default bootloader with their own, taking away the choice to choose the OS the user wants to dual boot into.
The thing that’s really devious here is that I can even see how someone might think that replacing the boot loader is easier. When I think of someone like my mom who could still do fine with punch cards but struggled by vista a boot loader would be unnecessarily complex. And the great irony is that google showed that linux could have options perfect for users like her. Chromeos is exactly what her use case was.
Yeah, Linux is pretty easy and user friendly for day to day use for the vast majority of users, since most people spend all their time in a browser anyway. It’s just that hurdle of getting it installed. The people who use it without issue are usually those that know nothing about Linux, and the very experienced. It’s the people in the middle that have trouble, they know enough to get themselves in trouble, but not enough to solve the problems they run into.
That’s pretty much where ChromeOS comes in. Linux out of the box, and the same tinkerers will still get into trouble and blame Linux, but when they reset the machine, it’s back to Linux. Same story as Windows. If it comes preloaded, the end user will be happy with it, but the tinkerers always overestimate their skills/understanding.
I am not doubting your experience and respect your judgement. However, I’m having trouble trying to understand how Windows files were easier to get than Linux. To me, it seems like they would be equally as easy, except that using a Linux live boot USB is much easier to make, which you can use for both. Perhaps, the Linux drive was encrypted? Anyone have ideas how Linux files would be more difficult to access? I’m really just trying to understand.
Maybe it was Gentoo installed 15 years ago… recent Linux is cake easy compared to way back when. I remember having to create a driver and compile a custom kernel just to get a USB lan adapter to work… these days it’s so effortless
Older WIndows, this is true. That was an advantage since Windows would think it was the only OS and behave somewhat if you set it up right. But newer Windows can browse Linux fine (may depend on the format). I can see my Ubuntu partition with my Win10 without extra software, which I did need in Win8.
That makes sense, considering Microsoft shoehorned the Linux kernel into NT. It’s been several years since I’ve tried to look at a Linux filesystem from Windows, so I’m not surprised they’ve updated it now. I do wonder if it can see ZFS or BTRFS, but I don’t care enough to look into it lol.
Counterpoint. I used to get constant tech support calls from both of my parents until i switched them both to Linux. Now if i get a call from either of them more than twice a year it’s an oddity, and that is usually to install new hardware like a printer which they couldn’t install on windows either.
Their systems update regularly, they both use opensuse. I’ve never remoted in. I could probably figure out how to if i needed to, but that isn’t even in my current skill set. No matter what people think Linux is stable and trouble free if you leave it alone, and just use your computer, unless you have nvidia. Fuck nvidia.
I feel like every time I’ve had to fix someone’s Linux install, it was caused by someone trying to add software that they don’t need, but are used to using in Windows.
Most recently a friend needed to update Linux Mint, and a TeamViewer ppa was preventing the upgrade from completing. Not a difficult fix, but something that comes up often in my experience.
Which is more than 90% of people who’ve ever used a computer. I built the computer and set up the dual boot partition and installed both Linux and Windows, why I felt like I needed Linux I don’t know. I never used it because 100% of the software I use was exclusive to Windows. What few apps did run on Linux at the time were remarkably easier to install on Windows. I think the only reason I had it on there was when I built that computer I was learning to code, but stopped bothering with that shortly after.
Yeah, anybody who says Linux is easy to use has never spent four hours troubleshooting a printer driver, only to discover that the open source driver doesn’t actually support your specific model of printer and you’re going to be forced to boot into Windows to print anything.
Cross-compatibility is improving, but the “Linux is easy” crowd is really just overcompensating for how unintuitive it actually is. The problem with telling everyone “it’s easy” to get them to try it is that if it’s not easy then people immediately give up and go back to Windows as soon as they can’t figure something out. It’s falsely representing the reality of the situation, which is only self-sabotaging in the long term because it means fewer people will be willing to adopt and actually stick with it.
Being that all printers are evil incarnate, that’s not a good example. You’re right on getting some things to work in Linux (although newer versions are much better than they used to be), but printers in Windows can be a nightmare too. The only two printers I never had issues with - an Okidata dot matrix printer for my C-64, and a HP 5P laser that I used with Win98 (remember when popping in a Win98 CD for drivers would fix almost everything?)
Obviously I disagree with your main point, but, considering I have been a Linux only user (in my personal life) for over a decade, it’s only natural that I would consider it easy to use and intuitive, as such, I won’t even try to argue against that assertion.
With that said, if you want to make a point against something just working, you may want to choose something other than printers as evidence of how bad Linux is. Printers are universally terrible on every OS.
Anecdotally, I have had far fewer issues with printers on Linux than I have had with printers on Windows. But, most of the “tech support” I do for printers is from people who are arguably tech illiterate and using Windows. So, I’d again consider that a wash that doesn’t really add weight to either side of the argument.
tl;dr: printers are universally terrible and we should all stop using them anyway
I help organizing events a few times a year. The administration needs a working printer hooked up to a laptop at each event. For more than a decade now, setting up the printer to work with a Windows laptop has always taken at least an hour, sometimes 2 or 3.
Yeah, printers are a pain. That’s as true on Linux as it is on Windows. I sometimes think that printer drivers are designed specifically to screw with customers on all OSes.
EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention the most “fun” part, when the printer mysteriously malfunctions mid event and needs to be urgently trouble-shooted.
Get a laser printer. Cheaper, more reliable, and they don’t have all the built in BS that laser printers have. A big reason so many Windows users have issues is because of the intentional DRM sabotage by the printer manufacturer, to make sure you’re only using approved ink cartridges. But toner is cheap and easy, and the printer manufacturers don’t bother trying to block users from printing.
But that same DRM sabotage is why Linux has so many issues with printers. And it’s also working from the disadvantage of having to reverse engineer the official drivers to figure out how they work, so they can then be ported over to Linux.
Just make sure you keep the laser printer away from areas that you occupy regularly/while you use it. They offgas small amounts of ozone, which is toxic. Not to mention that breathing in the toner is pretty terrible too.
Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to do anything about it. The organizers show up with a random laptop and a random printer, and I’ve just gotta make 'em talk to each other somehow.
I don’t know what printer you have, but I’ve had the exact opposite experience. I don’t remember how I eventually got it working, but printing on windows was a lot more effort than transferring the files to mac or linux, which just worked out of the box.
It’s been like that for some other miscellaneous devices like a playstation 3 controller and this old usb floppy drive I once needed.
That’s fair though I’m on my second attempt to switch. The first was several years ago and I did the dual boot and never actually use linux thing. This time I only boot up windows for things I wouldn’t have a problem with if I was running a Debian instead of arch based distro
Windows is still easier but it’s not just that linux is catching up. Windows is getting worse and harder to use. I still use it at work and every update I dislike it more.
The really Insidious part of Windows getting worse is that since they are the defacto desktop operating system, people get used to the terrible way things are done, and get confused when another OS does it differently. It’s so frustrating, because your end up with threads like this as a result… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When my dad died he left behind a handful of laptops and computers around the house, all running Linux.
My mother has to call me for help with setting up her TV, she wasn’t about to learn Linux. I managed to get any critical files off and we installed Windows. For all of it’s faults, it’s certainly a hell of a lot easier to use.
When I had a computer dual booting Windows and Linux, I maybe booted up Linux three or four times over the years I had it. It honestly just created a headache when that machine crapped out because half the files I wanted were damn near impossible to recover. Those on the Linux side. Now you could say if I had installed Linux and tried to recover them it would have been no problem and you would have been right, but running Linux is a headache in and of itself. I can acknowledge that it’s a better operating system, but not from a usability or access to software standpoint. Even if both of those areas are improving, windows still wins in both.
I definitely get that.
My comment was more so that if you have two things and a problem arises, you should get rid of the one that causes the problem you’re having.
In this case, the problem of Windows replacing the bootloader and Windows deserves to lose out because of that.
But I bet a lot of people incorrectly assume it is Linux that has caused the problem, and they’re not necessarily wrong to assume that since Linux takes a bit more to learn and can be confusing to the layman.
But the underlying issue in OP’s meme is Windows replacing the default bootloader with their own, taking away the choice to choose the OS the user wants to dual boot into.
The thing that’s really devious here is that I can even see how someone might think that replacing the boot loader is easier. When I think of someone like my mom who could still do fine with punch cards but struggled by vista a boot loader would be unnecessarily complex. And the great irony is that google showed that linux could have options perfect for users like her. Chromeos is exactly what her use case was.
Yeah, Linux is pretty easy and user friendly for day to day use for the vast majority of users, since most people spend all their time in a browser anyway. It’s just that hurdle of getting it installed. The people who use it without issue are usually those that know nothing about Linux, and the very experienced. It’s the people in the middle that have trouble, they know enough to get themselves in trouble, but not enough to solve the problems they run into.
That’s pretty much where ChromeOS comes in. Linux out of the box, and the same tinkerers will still get into trouble and blame Linux, but when they reset the machine, it’s back to Linux. Same story as Windows. If it comes preloaded, the end user will be happy with it, but the tinkerers always overestimate their skills/understanding.
I am not doubting your experience and respect your judgement. However, I’m having trouble trying to understand how Windows files were easier to get than Linux. To me, it seems like they would be equally as easy, except that using a Linux live boot USB is much easier to make, which you can use for both. Perhaps, the Linux drive was encrypted? Anyone have ideas how Linux files would be more difficult to access? I’m really just trying to understand.
Maybe it was Gentoo installed 15 years ago… recent Linux is cake easy compared to way back when. I remember having to create a driver and compile a custom kernel just to get a USB lan adapter to work… these days it’s so effortless
Windows requires extra software to read Linux filesystems. I guess that was too hard for OP. Like you said though, a live USB is the way to go.
Older WIndows, this is true. That was an advantage since Windows would think it was the only OS and behave somewhat if you set it up right. But newer Windows can browse Linux fine (may depend on the format). I can see my Ubuntu partition with my Win10 without extra software, which I did need in Win8.
That makes sense, considering Microsoft shoehorned the Linux kernel into NT. It’s been several years since I’ve tried to look at a Linux filesystem from Windows, so I’m not surprised they’ve updated it now. I do wonder if it can see ZFS or BTRFS, but I don’t care enough to look into it lol.
Counterpoint. I used to get constant tech support calls from both of my parents until i switched them both to Linux. Now if i get a call from either of them more than twice a year it’s an oddity, and that is usually to install new hardware like a printer which they couldn’t install on windows either.
How often are their systems updated? How often are you remoting in and solving a problem before it arises?
Their systems update regularly, they both use opensuse. I’ve never remoted in. I could probably figure out how to if i needed to, but that isn’t even in my current skill set. No matter what people think Linux is stable and trouble free if you leave it alone, and just use your computer, unless you have nvidia. Fuck nvidia.
I feel like every time I’ve had to fix someone’s Linux install, it was caused by someone trying to add software that they don’t need, but are used to using in Windows.
Most recently a friend needed to update Linux Mint, and a TeamViewer ppa was preventing the upgrade from completing. Not a difficult fix, but something that comes up often in my experience.
flips off in Torvalds
“I don’t want to learn something new, therefore Windows is better.”
Wouldn’t that have been easier to type than all that filler?
If you’d actually read it, you’d see that I’m not a stranger to Linux. Being familiar with it doesn’t fix how unintuitive and unsupported it is.
🤔
Which is more than 90% of people who’ve ever used a computer. I built the computer and set up the dual boot partition and installed both Linux and Windows, why I felt like I needed Linux I don’t know. I never used it because 100% of the software I use was exclusive to Windows. What few apps did run on Linux at the time were remarkably easier to install on Windows. I think the only reason I had it on there was when I built that computer I was learning to code, but stopped bothering with that shortly after.
🤔
That’s ok, you don’t have to be a coder to be able to use Linux
You’re right. But you do have to be willing to continue learning.
Yeah, anybody who says Linux is easy to use has never spent four hours troubleshooting a printer driver, only to discover that the open source driver doesn’t actually support your specific model of printer and you’re going to be forced to boot into Windows to print anything.
Cross-compatibility is improving, but the “Linux is easy” crowd is really just overcompensating for how unintuitive it actually is. The problem with telling everyone “it’s easy” to get them to try it is that if it’s not easy then people immediately give up and go back to Windows as soon as they can’t figure something out. It’s falsely representing the reality of the situation, which is only self-sabotaging in the long term because it means fewer people will be willing to adopt and actually stick with it.
Being that all printers are evil incarnate, that’s not a good example. You’re right on getting some things to work in Linux (although newer versions are much better than they used to be), but printers in Windows can be a nightmare too. The only two printers I never had issues with - an Okidata dot matrix printer for my C-64, and a HP 5P laser that I used with Win98 (remember when popping in a Win98 CD for drivers would fix almost everything?)
Obviously I disagree with your main point, but, considering I have been a Linux only user (in my personal life) for over a decade, it’s only natural that I would consider it easy to use and intuitive, as such, I won’t even try to argue against that assertion.
With that said, if you want to make a point against something just working, you may want to choose something other than printers as evidence of how bad Linux is. Printers are universally terrible on every OS.
Anecdotally, I have had far fewer issues with printers on Linux than I have had with printers on Windows. But, most of the “tech support” I do for printers is from people who are arguably tech illiterate and using Windows. So, I’d again consider that a wash that doesn’t really add weight to either side of the argument.
tl;dr: printers are universally terrible and we should all stop using them anyway
I help organizing events a few times a year. The administration needs a working printer hooked up to a laptop at each event. For more than a decade now, setting up the printer to work with a Windows laptop has always taken at least an hour, sometimes 2 or 3.
Yeah, printers are a pain. That’s as true on Linux as it is on Windows. I sometimes think that printer drivers are designed specifically to screw with customers on all OSes.
EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention the most “fun” part, when the printer mysteriously malfunctions mid event and needs to be urgently trouble-shooted.
Get a laser printer. Cheaper, more reliable, and they don’t have all the built in BS that laser printers have. A big reason so many Windows users have issues is because of the intentional DRM sabotage by the printer manufacturer, to make sure you’re only using approved ink cartridges. But toner is cheap and easy, and the printer manufacturers don’t bother trying to block users from printing.
But that same DRM sabotage is why Linux has so many issues with printers. And it’s also working from the disadvantage of having to reverse engineer the official drivers to figure out how they work, so they can then be ported over to Linux.
Just make sure you keep the laser printer away from areas that you occupy regularly/while you use it. They offgas small amounts of ozone, which is toxic. Not to mention that breathing in the toner is pretty terrible too.
Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to do anything about it. The organizers show up with a random laptop and a random printer, and I’ve just gotta make 'em talk to each other somehow.
I don’t know what printer you have, but I’ve had the exact opposite experience. I don’t remember how I eventually got it working, but printing on windows was a lot more effort than transferring the files to mac or linux, which just worked out of the box.
It’s been like that for some other miscellaneous devices like a playstation 3 controller and this old usb floppy drive I once needed.
That’s fair though I’m on my second attempt to switch. The first was several years ago and I did the dual boot and never actually use linux thing. This time I only boot up windows for things I wouldn’t have a problem with if I was running a Debian instead of arch based distro
Windows is still easier but it’s not just that linux is catching up. Windows is getting worse and harder to use. I still use it at work and every update I dislike it more.
The really Insidious part of Windows getting worse is that since they are the defacto desktop operating system, people get used to the terrible way things are done, and get confused when another OS does it differently. It’s so frustrating, because your end up with threads like this as a result… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯